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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 0:21:46 GMT
I’m feeling a slight smattering of depression today. Things have been going quite well. For the last 3 weeks, I’ve been on my new oestradiol tablets and reducing my diazepam for my insomnia, and things were starting to look quite hopeful.
Then for some reason I forgot to take my oestradiol tablet on Saturday morning. I have no idea why because I keep it right by the toothpaste, but I didn’t realise I’d missed it until Sunday morning. I didn’t have any trouble sleeping on Saturday night (with the help of my low dose of diazepam), so I didn’t think it would matter too much, but last night was a completely different story. I was back to it taking me hours to get to sleep, despite being really sleepy at about 9.30pm when I went to bed. I think I finally got to sleep somewhere between 1 and 2 am.
Unfortunately because I’ve had such an up and down time over the last 10 months or so, it only takes a really small set back like that to make my depression and anxiety flare up again.
I’m hoping that it’s just a glitch and that it was just brought on by me missing that one tablet, although I would have thought that if that was going to have an effect on my sleep I would have had trouble sleeping on Saturday night, because I took Sunday's dose at the normal time.
I wouldn’t have thought that just missing one tablet would make such a difference anyway, but then maybe my oestrogen levels are still pretty borderline after probably dropping pretty low when I wasn’t absorbing the patches, and it doesn’t take much at the moment to throw a spanner in the works.
Oh well, let’s just hope that last night was just a minor glitch and tonight will be better. I'm due to take my alternate night dose of Utrogestan tonight so hopefully that might help as well.
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Post by Gelis on Aug 6, 2012 6:02:24 GMT
A hug for you, Robyn. Sorry to hear that you are feeling down, but can sympathise. Hope that getting back into routine with your oestrogen will get you feeling better really soon. It can take a really little drop in levels to affect us, sometimes. When I was taking HRT I could often physically feel the difference mid month when my "natural" level of oestrogen plummeted!
Gxx
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 6:32:48 GMT
Thanks G. For some reason I always hit a 3 week barrier. That's what happened when I was trying all sorts of different HRTs. I could never get past the 3rd week without feeling like absolutely crap (thanks to my prog intolerance).
That routine still seems to happening, because this glitch (hopefully that's all it is) has happened at the 3 week mark again. I'll be glad when I've had a good 6 months of no dramas. Only then will I really feel that I've gotten on top of the meno crap.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 8:10:57 GMT
Yes, insomnia is the one thing that I just can't seem to get a handle on. Hot flushes are easily fixed for me. I don't seem to need very much oestrogan to sort them out. That was my first clue that the patches weren't working because I had one night where I had a couple of quite intense hotties.
I know what you're saying about the diazepam. When I first started on these new oestradiol tablets 3 weeks ago I increased my diazepam dose to 4mg which is still quite a low dose, but a fairly high dose for me. I read about some people taking 20-30mg and I really wonder how they manage to function. Over the last 3 weeks I've decreased down to 2.5mg which is a fairly average dose for me. I only reduce by 0.25mg every 2-3 days, so it's a very gradual withdrawal.
I'm going to stick with that dose for a few more days. Hopefully missing Saturday's tablet has just made my levels drop a little and taking it correctly for the last two days has correctly the glitch - fingers crossed.
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Post by gobe on Aug 6, 2012 8:16:00 GMT
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 8:27:10 GMT
Oh thanks Bex. I've just had my dinner, and I'm about to have my (caffeine free) warm milk drink. Then I'll watch TV for a while, and then hopefully I will drift off really quickly, just like I've been doing for the last couple of weeks.
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Post by gobe on Aug 6, 2012 8:34:46 GMT
I find sticking to my routines really helps me through the low days. Wishing you a good sleep tonight. zzz
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Post by jacksfullofaces on Aug 6, 2012 13:43:11 GMT
Robyn
Hope you get a good nights sleep. I agree with the others leave the diazepam alone until you are feeling better. Have you tried melatonin for sleep.
Jacks
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 21:19:57 GMT
Last night was a little better, but that was mainly because I ended up taking two lots of Diazepam (a total of 5mg) which is the highest dose I ever allow myself, and I eventually went to sleep. The problem I find with sleeping meds though is if you take a couple of doses spread out over a few hours it never works as well as it does if you take that same amount in one go. The frustrating part is that I’m always really sleepy when I go to bed, but as soon as I turn the light out I’m wide awake.
Anyway tonight I’m going to settle on a 3.75mg dose, which should work okay, and I’m going to talk to my doctor today about getting some blood tests done. She’s not usually that bothered about blood tests, but I think with my history it might be a good idea to have some tests done now, and then maybe again in a few weeks time, just to see if my levels are increasing. My problem is that I can’t get a proper picture of what is happening because I have to take Diazepam as well, and that masks a lot of what is going on.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 21:22:16 GMT
I haven't tried it for a long time, but I did try lavendar oil a while back and I'm afraid it did nothing for me.
The interesting thing is that I'm not a naturally anxious person. I'm usually pretty laid back about things. My anxiety is directly related to my insomnia. This bloody menopause has turned me into someone I don't recognise.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 6, 2012 21:24:11 GMT
Robyn Hope you get a good nights sleep. I agree with the others leave the diazepam alone until you are feeling better. Have you tried melatonin for sleep. Jacks Yes I do occasionally take some melatonin, but I don't find it's that effective when it comes to hormonal insomnia. The only things that seem to work are the sleeping medications, unfortunately. I think I might just have to resign myself to staying on them for the long term. |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 7, 2012 3:44:40 GMT
Something that just occurred to me is that about a week ago I changed from taking my oestradiol tablet in the afternoon to taking it in the morning. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here, but I wonder if taking it early in the day is having some kind of affect on how well I sleep that night? Maybe I'm better off going back to taking it in the afternoon. I think I might try taking tomorrow mornng's dose this afternoon and see what happens.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 7, 2012 5:01:28 GMT
Yes that is interesting. I think I remember asking the doctor once if it really mattered what time of the day you took it and I think she said to take it whenever it was convenient. I decided to switch to the morning because I thought it would be easier to remember, but judging by what happened on Saturday that didn't work out too well. I actually think I remember it better in the afternoon because I just leave it on the hand basin in the bathroom and I see it when I have my shower, and I'm always a late afternoon shower girl. I work in a dusty environment (cabinet maker) and I can't stand the feeling of having dinner and going to bed without having a shower first.
I haven't taken it yet this afternoon. I've got a doctor's appointment soon, because I want to talk to her about getting some blood tests taken, so I'll take it when I get home and hopefully it might give me a better night's sleep. I know blood tests aren't totally reliable, but maybe if I get some done now and then some more in a few week's time it might show if my levels are increasing or not and I'll know whether to stick to what I'm doing.
I've still got the prescription that my GP gave me for the Premarin which I've never gotten filled, but I just feel that I really want to stick with the oestradiol for at least the 2 months to see if it will work. I was also reading something a while ago about a lady who's doctor has her on 1mg oestradiol in the morning and 2mg at night (or vice versa). Not sure if that is an option for me, if I need a higher dose than the 2mg I'm currently taking.
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Post by jacksfullofaces on Aug 7, 2012 8:15:04 GMT
If you have a quick metabolism then often the hormones don't hang around for 24 hours. I apply my oestrogel 3 times daily.
Jacks
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Post by jacksfullofaces on Aug 7, 2012 8:51:23 GMT
Why not use a pump in the molrning and one at night.
Jacks
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Post by Robyn on Aug 7, 2012 8:56:24 GMT
I had my doctor's appointment this afternoon, but she didn't really think there would be any benefit in having b/tests done, which is what I thought she would say. Basically, I'm just going to stick with things for another month and increase the diazepam and find a dose that suits me and stay on that dose for a couple of months without trying to withdraw from it, and just see what happens.
I'm probably my own worst enemy when it comes to the diazepam because I hate being on it so much, that maybe I'm trying to rush my withdrawal from it. She thinks I need to just relax about taking it if I have to and just give the oestradiol a bit more time. She has always been really okay about me taking the diazepam. She knows that I hate taking it so much, and that I take such a low dose, that I will never abuse it, so she's never had a problem with giving me more prescriptions for it. Today she gave me prescriptions for 50 x 2mg and 50 x 5mg tablets. I could sell them on the black market..lol...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 13:30:31 GMT
Robyn, I hope you feel better soon. There is nothing worse than that awful 'down' feeling. I think I have just been a bit complacent lately because I have felt quite good, then to get an episode of bad nights with little sleep is like a slap in the face. You are on a very similar regime to me - utro alternate nights vaginally and I do think I sleep better on the utro days; my Elleste tabs are a lower strength than yours though only 1 mg. I have been wondering whether I should ask to up this, and did have a blood test done which included hormone levels (double dutch still to me though) but I think its this rather than utro that give me the sore breast issue so not sure I want to increase that particular problem any! You've probably done all of the tried and tested methods for insomnia but I do find one relaxation CD pretty good as his voice is so boring and in places a bit comical. (Deep sleep by Glenn Harrold) Very often I have nodded off before it finishes - not always though. I sometimes resort to half a Zoplicone tab, but like you am loath to take it too often as don't want to become dependent.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 5:57:12 GMT
If you have a quick metabolism then often the hormones don't hang around for 24 hours. I apply my oestrogel 3 times daily. Jacks Wow - your metabolism must be really fast. Mine's pretty slow I think, and that's one of the reasons I have trouble losing weight.... well that's what I tell myself anyway. |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 6:01:44 GMT
I know this will sound quite macabre, but I've got a bad of 'goodies' stashed away for my kids to do for me what Dr Kervorkian what did best. There have been days where I have tried to work out how much I'd need to take to do the job, because I've felt so bad. Knowing my luck though I wouldn't take enough and I'd just end up in hospital feeling really really sick. Luckily I have a naturally optimistic nature, so I always manage to convince myself things will get better, and they do. |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 6:06:21 GMT
Robyn, I hope you feel better soon. There is nothing worse than that awful 'down' feeling. I think I have just been a bit complacent lately because I have felt quite good, then to get an episode of bad nights with little sleep is like a slap in the face. You are on a very similar regime to me - utro alternate nights vaginally and I do think I sleep better on the utro days; my Elleste tabs are a lower strength than yours though only 1 mg. I have been wondering whether I should ask to up this, and did have a blood test done which included hormone levels (double dutch still to me though) but I think its this rather than utro that give me the sore breast issue so not sure I want to increase that particular problem any! You've probably done all of the tried and tested methods for insomnia but I do find one relaxation CD pretty good as his voice is so boring and in places a bit comical. (Deep sleep by Glenn Harrold) Very often I have nodded off before it finishes - not always though. I sometimes resort to half a Zoplicone tab, but like you am loath to take it too often as don't want to become dependent. Thanks Jaycee. I'm feeling better today because I did get a good night's sleep last night, but I did increase my diazepam. I usually feel better after I've seen my GP because she is very kind and understanding, and never makes me feel like I'm being paranoid or wasting her time, and she always tells me I'm my own worst enemy because I stress about the diazepam so much. So the plan is to just reduce the diazepam back to the dose I was on last week, which was working okay, and just leave it at that for at least a couple of weeks. Then I'll try reducing it a little bit again and wait for another couple of weeks before doing any more reductions. |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 6:58:44 GMT
That's so sweet Pinky. Thank you.  |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 7:17:12 GMT
On the radio the other day there was a doctor talking about sleep issues. A woman of 36 phoned in to ask his opinion of her use of sleeping tablets - Zolpidem. He suggested she wean herself off the Zolpidem and at the same time start on diazepam, the lesser of the two evils, and then she can slowly wean herself off that. BUT he said that sleep is far more important than worrying about a small amount of diazepam intake and he said if need be she should stay on the diazepam indefinitely. What diazepam are you on Robyn? There are differences in the half-life of say, Valium and Urbanol, which I take occasionally, which is extremely important to know in order for you to be able to determine the health risks and to be able to function, safely, during the day. It's really interesting that you should post that because this was one of the issues that I think saw my eventual demise from another forum. I was originally taking Tamazepam, but I did a lot of reading about sleeping meds, and it was definitely recommended to be on diazepam (valium) because it is much easier to wean yourself off it because it has a much longer half-life and it is much less harsh on the body when you reduce the dose. It is also the only sleeping medication that you can get in really small doses (2mg) so you can reduce it in really tiny increments over a long period of time, which you can't do with other sleeping meds. Anyway, I posted that information on the other forum and I was promptly told I was wrong and that valium was dangerous, which is a very old-fashioned and out of date attitude to have. It comes from all the bad press it got back in the 60s when every housewife was taking it (but they were probably menopausal and needed it anyway). When I posted the information I had to support what I was saying, and also said that my GP had confirmed my findings, no one was interested. I think I then got the "trouble maker" stamp put on my file. I take valium which I think from memory has about a 200 hour half-life. My GP has more or less said exactly what that doctor on the radio said. She always says I stress too much about taking such a small dose, and I shouldn’t because sleep is much more important. The highest dose I have ever taken is 5mg, but I usually take around 2mg to 2.5mg, but I have been as low as 1mg. I never feel any hang over effects from taking it. In fact I usually feel really good the next day because I’ve had a good night’s sleep. |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 8, 2012 8:44:27 GMT
Thanks Bella. Yes, today has been a better day. When you sleep well you always feel you can cope with more. I just need to stress less about the sleeping med side and things and I should be okay. I also think that going back to taking my oestradiol at night might help with the insomnia too.
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Post by Robyn on Aug 10, 2012 14:05:56 GMT
I think I'm going to have to give up on trying to persist with the oestradiol tablets. It's midnight here and I just can't sleep even though I've taken an extra sleeping tablet. I've got a prescription that the GP gave me for Premarin, which I've been avoiding getting filled, but I think I will have to tomorrow (err today) and see if that makes any difference. If it doesn't I really don't know what my next step will be. I just know I can't cope with the insomnia.
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Post by Gelis on Aug 10, 2012 14:25:07 GMT
Hope you can get some sleep tonight, at least!
You've been changing the times when you take your oestradiol, haven't you? Could you not go back to your original time, which IIRC was ok until you missed one?
I'd go with what the other ladies have said, too, and stick with the diazepam for the moment.
This may sound weird, but when we had our last dog, he had two difficult to manage conditions - epilepsy & epi (pancreatic insufficiency - which meant that he couldn't digest his food properly). The advice given by the vet, which I've never forgotten was to only change one thing at a time, if things went out of sync. If you change both meds at the same time, then you may find that you don't know which has made the difference. It is logical when you think about it - maybe you just need more time to get settled on your current regime.
Anyway
Nighty night, from another insomniac!
Gxx
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Post by Gelis on Aug 10, 2012 14:32:59 GMT
In my case the heat is the main problem at the moment. I can usually go to sleep ok, then wake at around 2 and can't drop off again because I'm wide awake and/or boiling! Once I am awake then I start mithering away about this & that, drop off at around 5 and am then woken up at about 6 when the dogs start barking outside.
Gxx
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Post by jacksfullofaces on Aug 10, 2012 15:36:23 GMT
I had a wonderful evening yesterday - had blazing row with husband in the morning and told him I was bored with quiet evenings. Last night he gathered me up and took me to Herne Bay where we swam in the sea on a deserted beach and because the sun was going down I didn't worry about burning my skin. Better still some photographs he took showed my hair improving and the puffiness on my face diminishing.
Jacks
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Post by jacksfullofaces on Aug 10, 2012 15:40:31 GMT
In my case the heat is the main problem at the moment. I can usually go to sleep ok, then wake at around 2 and can't drop off again because I'm wide awake and/or boiling! Once I am awake then I start mithering away about this & that, drop off at around 5 and am then woken up at about 6 when the dogs start barking outside. Gxx Try my trick Dump your head in cold water - it instantly cools your body temperature and improves sleep during warm weather Jacks xxx |
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Post by Gelis on Aug 10, 2012 18:14:40 GMT
In my case the heat is the main problem at the moment. I can usually go to sleep ok, then wake at around 2 and can't drop off again because I'm wide awake and/or boiling! Once I am awake then I start mithering away about this & that, drop off at around 5 and am then woken up at about 6 when the dogs start barking outside. Gxx Try my trick Dump your head in cold water - it instantly cools your body temperature and improves sleep during warm weather Jacks xxx I actually have a similar one which I use when it gets too bad. I always have a bath last thing at night (anyway), but in the summer I leave the water in it, so that there is a nice cold bath to get into at 3 in the morning when I'm soaking with sweat. Works well. Gxx |
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Post by Robyn on Aug 10, 2012 22:18:05 GMT
I think I eventually got to sleep somewhere around 1.30-2am, but then I was awake again at about 5am.
I'm going to try one last experiment and that is stop the Utrogestan, because the way I've been feeling is exactly the same as I felt when I was using the synthetic prog. It's hard to explain, but it's the kind of insomnia that nothing helps - even diazepam. When I'm feeling like this I think I could take 20mg of the stuff and it would have no effect. It's just a complete inability to sleep - at all.
I'm currently using the Utro on alternate nights and considering my problem with synthetic prog, maybe that's just too much Utro for me as well. I used 100mg last night, but I took it later than normal because I forgot it. Not sure if that would have affected how I slept. Frankly I'm not ruling anything out.
So I'm going to stick with the oestradiol for the time being, but stop the Utro totally for at least a few weeks to see if that helps. Using the Utro on alternate nights hasn't been very successful for me anyway, because even though I started using it on 25th May, I've regularly had periods every 2 weeks, which is defeating the purpose of trying to have a "period free" regime.
So if this works I want to take the smallest dose of Utro over the longest interval to do the job. Otherwise I think I might consider a hysterectomy. I know that's a radical approach, but if progesterone in general is my problem then I want to get rid of the reason I need to use it.
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