Vagifem,surely this helpful product is not to be..

[susan]

discontinued in the UK.

My DH came back from part collecting my supplies and told me our Chemist who is normally pretty reliable, has said that from December he wont be able to get any Vagifem and I need to go back to my GP and make other arrangements.

I know we have heard scaremongering stories before about this, but because they were all sometime ago I dismissed them as that.

Surely Novo Nordisk aren't pulling this really successful product that brings relief to atrophied vagina's around the world. They must be making millions from it.

Unfortunately I didn't speak to the guy myself, so dint know if it is just the 25 mcgs that is being pulled.

But I for one do not wish to mess about inserting 5 x 10 mcgs of the stuff a week, even if that is still going to be an option.

I don't think it is medically sound as you end up with a load more fillers than actual product, which are probably more harmful than the flippin oestrogen. Rant, rant.

I also dont really fancy ovestin as I'm not sure it will be effective after two and a half years of vagifem 25.

i know you can get 25 mcgs on the internet still, but of course that might be until their stocks deplete, plus they cost a dam fortune, well to me they do as I get six months of vagifem for £7.60 or whatever the cost of the script is.

Talk about having a love/hate relationship with the drug company's !

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Well ladies
This is disgraceful and always happening with hormone preparations. I do use Ovestin and get along great with it but its so annoying when a relied product goes into hiding.
Jacks

[susan]

So true jax. I'm sure it is a government plot to keep all menopausal women downtrodden and in agony, you can hardly raise a stink about something if you are too ill to get out of the house, or even to a computer.

My cynical self tells me that Novo Nordisk can make millions more on the 10 mcg than the 25 mcg so of course it's in their interests to discontinue the 25 mcg.

They then put out the propaganda that 10 mcgs is better for them (Yeah right, not if you bl@ddy well need 5 a week to keep the UTI's and pain at bay)

The annoying thing is they put the product out there for about 5 years make you dependant on it for quality of life purposes and then withdraw it.

I'm sure they did the same with a HRT callled Nuvelle that was withdrawn simply on the grounds of cost, with no really viable alternative offered as it was the only one with a particular progesterone in it that some could tolerate.

Many women struggled when it was withdrawn.

They are barstewards of the first order.

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Aug 20, 2012 13:54:05 GMT susan said:

So true jax. I'm sure it is a government plot to keep all menopausal women downtrodden and in agony, you can hardly raise a stink about something if you are too ill to get out of the house, or even to a computer.

My cynical self tells me that Novo Nordisk can make millions more on the 10 mcg than the 25 mcg so of course it's in their interests to discontinue the 25 mcg.

They then put out the propaganda that 10 mcgs is better for them (Yeah right, not if you bl@ddy well need 5 a week to keep the UTI's and pain at bay)

The annoying thing is they put the product out there for about 5 years make you dependant on it for quality of life purposes and then withdraw it.

I'm sure they did the same with a HRT callled Nuvelle that was withdrawn simply on the grounds of cost, with no really viable alternative offered as it was the only one with a particular progesterone in it that some could tolerate.

Many women struggled when it was withdrawn.

They are barstewards of the first order.

xxxx

Susan
I'm planning on raising a stink. I have almost finished writing a book about the politics of menopause and I will self publish if I have to. I have had stuff published
in the past. Did you know that osteoporosis is treated according to guidelines issued by European Directives? and that the media don't push hormone use because of revenue from alternative remedies advertising revenue ..... Kerching!

[susan]

Kerching indeed ! You are so right about all this.

Every snake oil remedy has 20 % VAT on it as we all know, unlike hormone treatments.

Hormone treatments are proven to be effective in 85% of women, there are no details on the other stuff, although the way women report their lack of success speaks for itself (magnets gathering dust in cupboards ;D).

I was informed by a Senior Consultant at a London teaching hospital and a couple of GP's that I had a lot of time for that glucosamine sulphate does not work for arthritis.

But unfortnatley the medical profession (well those that care) can't combat the huge scale advertising of these things and the dodgy websites with anecdotal evidence from 'satisfied customers'

One guy told me, 'more people with arthritis take it than do not, so we cant get meaningfufl studies up and running.

Such has been the success of just one such product.

sorry a bit off-topic from meno and vagifem.

Good luck with the book.

[jacksfullofaces]

I must admit I like ovestin. The advantage with cream is that you can rub a little around the inner labia and urethal opening which gives me excllent results.
Jacks

[jacksfullofaces]

Aug 20, 2012 14:54:39 GMT susan said:

Kerching indeed ! You are so right about all this.

Every snake oil remedy has 20 % VAT on it as we all know, unlike hormone treatments.

Hormone treatments are proven to be effective in 85% of women, there are no details on the other stuff, although the way women report their lack of success speaks for itself (magnets gathering dust in cupboards ;D).

I was informed by a Senior Consultant at a London teaching hospital and a couple of GP's that I had a lot of time for that glucosamine sulphate does not work for arthritis.

But unfortnatley the medical profession (well those that care) can't combat the huge scale advertising of these things and the dodgy websites with anecdotal evidence from 'satisfied customers'

One guy told me, 'more people with arthritis take it than do not, so we cant get meaningfufl studies up and running.

Such has been the success of just one such product.

sorry a bit off-topic from meno and vagifem.

Good luck with the book.

Thank you Susan
I was very naughty. I got the ASA involved with a product claiming to alleviate vaginal dryness and they were forced to withdraw it and repackage with a new label. It was an Omega 7 product. I also got Sylk into trouble. But the company with the omega product annoyed me because their defense was they could say anything they wanted as menopause isn't a medical condition. The ASA didn't agree that they could however ;D
Jacks

[jacksfullofaces]

Never tried the combination. Found Ovestin alone is fine. Just load applicator - lay back and fire.In my case husband and cats sniggering at me. Then use a pea size blob for inner labia and clitoris. Very useful for encourage good blood flow to the parts that need them lol
Jacks

[susan]

Good for you getting the ASA involved.

I've got some Ovestin, but not tried it yet, got it on the Continent a few weeks back, over there you can buy it in the chemists no need for a prescription (so that shows how little it needs to be controlled).

I think you can use both, my idea is to use the tablet twice a week internally and cream externally as i sometimes get the feeling of paper cuts on the external skin.

There are a lot of horrible products out there for vagina's.

I really couldn't get on with Replens, but am loathe to say what I have found awful as then the next thing you know, someone has either been prescribed it or bought a shed load of it at cost to themselves.

It's not great to rain on someones parade for all I know it may even work for them even though it didn't me.

Personally though I think the only effective way really is some sort of vaginal oestrogen.

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Aug 20, 2012 17:06:06 GMT @bellaciao said:

Hi Susan and all

We have a short thread on vaginal problems here:
menopausesupport.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=menosupport&action=display&thread=10

I have never used Ovestin but I use the other estriol preparation which are Orthogynest pessaries and these have helped enormously with VA. I also have some Gynest cream for topical use (like jacks with Ovestin) on external areas in that region.

Apart from the fact that Vagifem is estradiol, the main difference with Orthgynest is that the estriol is contained in a waxy pessaries so gradually melts and oozes over your tissues overnight and hopefully some also reaches the exterior too. Some would not like this as too messy but it is perfectly OK the next day. I find the increase in moistness down there re-assuring! Also helps with general lubrication in that area which is good at certain times (!).

You use it as Vagifem ie every night for a fortnight then twice a week maintenance ( or increase now and again if necessary).

I think everyone has their own favourite of the various vaginal topical treatments available.

The pessaries suit me just fine and the dryness has gone.

No reason not to use both ie the cream on the external areas, although I am sure many gynaes will say it is unnecessary - but they may not have vaginas (!).

Ovestin is 10x more concentrated than Gynest cream but the SPC doesn;t give the amount of Estriol for one dose of the cream. Ovestin and the orthogynest pessaries both provide 0.5 mg estriol per application.

The politics of it all is nauseating - and good for you jacks and anyone that tries to challenge the mighty pharmaceuticals.

Bellaciao x

Talking of nasty vaginal products - here is an encounter with a gynaecologist - a short extract from my book to amuse or horrify you all - NHS politics V myself
An encounter with a consultant gynaecologist
“Untreated menopause should be optional – it will never be my choice”

I sat in the consulting room listening as the pleasant doctor gave me the results of my tests. My Cystocele was graded as mild to which I commented that it was mild if you weren’t the person afflicted with it.
The advice was to do nothing but use cranberry juice and a pessary was to be avoided because of risks of infection.
“What about estriol cream to strengthen the tissues” I suggested
“Not required – use a vaginal lubricant if you are dry”
I eyed up the tube the doctor pushed in my direction. There were no ingredients listed and I wondered precisely what the tube contained. Anyhow I was unimpressed about anointing my vagina in icy cold gluey gel as a prelude pre sex.
“This won’t prevent the onset of atrophy” I commented
The doctor smiled “but you still have a regular cycle – any dryness cannot be caused by low oestrogen”
To me this sounded like NHS protocol and I felt my hackles rise. I took a deep breath and began
I asked the doctor how he would like to reach the age of fifty and suffer a shrivelled sex organ. I continued by mentioning the four major threats to female health. Osteoporosis, heart disease, depression and colon cancer are more common in women who are starved of oestrogen.
The doctor replied with the magic words “breast cancer”
“If I didn’t use hormones how much does my risk reduce?” I questioned
The gynaecologist shook his head – he didn’t have the answer
I pointed out that a close friend had breast cancer and she had not used hormones
The nurse interjected that non smokers were known to get lung cancer – usually linked to cigarettes
I replied that lung cancer had a far stronger association with cigarettes and that smoking was never good for health but hormones are necessary for female well being
The nurse nodded- I had made my point
The doctor pointed out that menopause was a new stage in a woman’s life
I was amazed and responded that it certainly was a new part of life. Basically women shrivelled up and expected to sit in the corner doing something quietly i.e. knitting after menopause arrived.
I then pointed out the rising incidents of sickness for women in menopause and the divorce rates.
The doctor suddenly dropped his guard and conceded that every point I made was correct. However due to European Directives and NHS policy he was not permitted to recommend hormones for menopause.
He then told me a story which demonstrates the arrant stupidity of the NHS
His wife was at risk of miscarriage and he knew the hormone progesterone in the form of Cyclogest could help prevent it. The NHS only permits its use for women who have an IVF pregnancy – normal pregnancies apparently can simply miscarry without this intervention. The doctor came from Italy where this treatment is common. If he gave his wife this treatment and she subsequently lost the pregnancy the NHS would have blamed him for not adhering to protocol.
Fortunately all was well and a healthy child was born despite his wife deciding to ignore protocol.
We parted on good terms and I got him thinking as he offered me a pelvic scan as an extra health check and was kind enough to comment that he found me a very interesting patient.
The tube of lubricant remained on his desk awaiting a patient compliant with NHS policy.

In conclusion I am left speechless at the stupidity of raising the risk of CVD – biggest killer of women, bowel cancer, osteoporosis and depression all for the sake of possibly slightly reducing the risk of breast cancer.
It is cruel and illogical. This policy picks out women in menopause and fails to consider quality of life and the ultimate cost to society – women aren’t stupid. Many know that they are being conned but unfortunately they feel too unhealthy to assert themselves.

[jacksfullofaces]

Aug 20, 2012 16:46:14 GMT @sweetpea said:

Jacks - I just love the way you describe things - you certainly give me a good giggle.

I was wondering about trying Ovestin anyway as I do still get a little irritation and itching even with using the Vagifem. Maybe using the ovestin on the outer bits would help with that - I usaully use Sudacrem but not really the right product.

Is the Ovestin very messy or is it absorbed by the morning so to speak and only messy when first put in?

Pinky - I think you are right - I am sure I have heard Bella mention this too

Yes to use a certain coy phrase from a colourful person - the undercarriage needs oiling
Ovestin is little messy but not bad and I use some daily on my face and lips!
Jacks

Sweetpea

[susan]

Hi sweet pea

Basically there are the following

Vagifem 25 mcg pessaries
Vagifem 10 mcg pessaries

Ortho-gynest pessaries
Ortho-gynest cream

Ovestin cream

I was given the OG pessaries by mistake by my GP and as I don't like waste of any sort I did try one, but after being used to vagifem it felt like it burnt me inside. So I had to kind of yank it out ( how dignified - not). But it was probably just because I was used to a different product.

I would imagine any of the above would bring eventual relief to someone with urethral problems caused by the ever thinking skin we get down there as part of menopause.

Sometimes you have to persevere for a good couple of weeks and it can seem like it gets worse before it gets better but it will be worth it in the end, these preparations are tiny doses the same as taking just one 2 mg tablet of HRT a year, and I think that is mainly down to the initial 14 day treatment after that it doesn't appear to go systemic at all according to the five years of double blind testing they did.

Jacks you have some cracking menopause story's.

Can't beleive a Dr mentioned BC in a hushed whisper around the subject of the tiny amounts of oestro in vaginal treatments, you did well not to punch him. I really do dispare of they way they treat menopausal women - i.e. as if we have the intellectual ability of a squashed apricot. Glad you and he came to an understanding at the end of it all. At least you got him to disclose some worthwhile and valuable information.

Don't they realise many of us have had an education and know how to apply it, plus some of us can read !

xxxx

[susan]

Hi Bella

I have finally got here.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the support you have given me, didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Susan
My husband sat there waiting for an almighty explosion from me - I run rings round doctors. They are so immersed in NHS dogma it is not difficult to outwit them.
Jacks

[susan]

Your welcome pinky, have a good sleep. Maybe you will do better on one of the others, nothing is written in tablets of stone, Bella likes ortho-gynest, Jacks likes and gets on with ovestin, there will be one there for you.

xxxx

[susan]

Aug 21, 2012 16:23:40 GMT @sweetpea said:

Thanks Jacks, Susan and Bella for your advice - I think I would like some cream to rub in as maybe the Vagifem does not quite get to the external bits .

Susan: The way you describe the paper cuts is how it feels at times for me and I even see a little bright red bleeding with it. I have been using sudacrem which helps but not really the right product for it I am sure. I also use the Bio active gel and that seems to help too but not as good as an estrogen cream would be I imagine.

Vagifem is working in every other way and I have been on that for about 7 months now at twice a week with the occasional extra one.

Would I able to use Vagifem and say ovestin or ortho together it being two different makes? This is assuming my GP will even let me have it - that will be my main battle I suspect

Sorry sweetpea

I have only just seen this as I have been reading the forum in a different way i.e. 100 latest posts.

I my own opinion there is no problem in using vagifem for the internal bits and ovestin for the external bits, its just a matter of being able to convince a GP so they will prescribe both.

Over the years you kind of have to work out a strategy as to how to get what you need from your GP.

If you say that you have no intention of using it internally, but just want a one off tube to use externally i cant see why they should have a problem.

Just tell them you have a friend who uses it and finds it very soothing.

I try to use nothing down there apart from water and topical oestogen.

I was so desperate at the begining that I tried stuff like sudocreme and I think i used bio-oil (doc said it wont do any harm, but it wont do any good :

This was on the external bits not the internal ones. But I think they did more harm than good.

In the end the vagifem does kind of plump up the whole area so can even make the outer bits more robust, but that a)seems to take more time and b) seems to be a lot more hit and miss than getting the internal sorted.

The trouble with all t'other stuff that you can buy over the counter is that also has loads of fillers & some have something called parabens in them Not 100% on what they are but the general consensus seems to be they are best kept away from the delicate vaginal tissues.

I think the stuff called KY-gel is full of these parabens and it isn't something I personally would use.

Although the vet did suggest we put it on the thermometer when we tried to take the cats rectal temperature as it would be more plesant for the cat

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Although the vet did suggest we put it on the thermometer when we tried to take the cats rectal temperature as it would be more plesant for the cat

But would you have escaped unscathed from the teeth and claws of your cat ;D

[susan]

LOL my cat is faster than a whippet, she never let us get near her so the temperature never got took at home. Left it to the Vet he charges enough.

sweetpea.

I think low key with a lot of UK GP's can work.

A sort of 'my friend has tried................... do you think i could just have one tube to see if it will sort me out', but i guess it might depend on the GP.

My GP must think my 'friends' are walking menopausal disaster areas the amount of personal recommendations I have had for products from them.

xxxx

[susan]

Silverlady gave me this site where you can buy it direct.

Please note this is not a recommendation from me as such. I'm happy to say a product is what someone needs if I have used it, but dont really like to recommed sites I haven't used, I think its a persons own decison if they want to buy on line.

www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-303-ovestin-cream-1-by-organon.aspx

Its currently out of stock but they seem to get stuff in all the time. As I have followed the site with interest since she sent me the link, she had purchased from them as she wouldn't ahve passed it on to me otherwise.

I think ovestin is about £7 on there.

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Aug 21, 2012 21:09:34 GMT susan said:

Silverlady gave me this site where you can buy it direct.

Please note this is not a recommendation from me as such. I'm happy to say a product is what someone needs if I have used it, but dont really like to recommed sites I haven't used, I think its a persons own decison if they want to buy on line.

www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-303-ovestin-cream-1-by-organon.aspx

Its currently out of stock but they seem to get stuff in all the time. As I have followed the site with interest since she sent me the link, she had purchased from them as she wouldn't ahve passed it on to me otherwise.

I think ovestin is about £7 on there.

xxxx

I have used this site and the service is excellent.
Jacks

[susan]

Aug 22, 2012 8:30:03 GMT jacksfullofaces said:

Aug 21, 2012 21:09:34 GMT susan said:

Silverlady gave me this site where you can buy it direct.

Please note this is not a recommendation from me as such. I'm happy to say a product is what someone needs if I have used it, but dont really like to recommed sites I haven't used, I think its a persons own decison if they want to buy on line.

www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-303-ovestin-cream-1-by-organon.aspx

Its currently out of stock but they seem to get stuff in all the time. As I have followed the site with interest since she sent me the link, she had purchased from them as she wouldn't ahve passed it on to me otherwise.

I think ovestin is about £7 on there.

xxxx

I have used this site and the service is excellent.
Jacks

Thanks Jacks.

I'm sure silverlady had used it and was happy with it, as there is no way she would have sent me the link otherwise.

It has competatively priced sandrena gel on it which I wanted for my holidays (FemSeven patches and swimming 24/7 are not a good mix).

In the end I bottled it and went to my GP, was straight with her as to why I wanted it and she prescribed me a 64 pump pack of oestrodose which is the brand of oestrogel prescribed in the UK.

Ironically the one thing I worry about with such sites is not the quality of the hormones I am sure they are genuine or the sites would fold and many have been around for years, it's credit card fraud.

If you look on the 'check out' pages they do not have the little yellow padlock in the bottom right hand corner that we know and love in the UK as denoting a site is almost 100% secure.

The advise I have read is to keep a seperate credit card for all intenet transactions with a very low credit limit for small purchases. So on the extremely rare occassion fraud occurs you can spot it immediately.

xxxx

[susan]

Aug 22, 2012 8:58:59 GMT @pinky said:

Susan

Sorry to sound stupid but what is the difference between Oestrogel (which I use) and Sandrena?

xx

Hi pinky

I don't think there is any, speaking as a lay person they are both estradiol which is the most natural form of oestrogen. But maybe Bella may know the science behind them.

Sandrena come in individual sachets which could be convenient for some and oestrogel in the pump pack.

Maybe it is personal preference ? For example some women seem to find sandrena dries out their skin whereas I have seen other reports that women prefer sandrena over oestrogel as it is easy to make sure you get a stable measured dose due to the sachets.

This is some information on it that I seem to have written down from somewhere in a previous life:

Oestrogel - 2 measures once a day = to 1.5mg estradiol if necessary increase to 4 measures daily = TO 3.0mg estradiol, cost in UK £4.80 for 64-dose pump

Sandrena - 1 application daily 0.5mg or 1mg -dose range 0.5 to 1.5mg daily, cost in UK £5.18 & £5.96 respectively

Seems to be two strengths of Sandrena.

If you click on this link you can see the generic although that is what you are likely to get on the NHS in certain cash strapped parts of the UK anyway.

www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-469-sandrena-1g-oestradiol.aspx

I think Scotland uses generics as the scripts up there are still free so no doubt generics are more cost effective.

Whereas in England I have always been prescribed the original branded products.

xxxx

[susan]

I have just had a thort!

Yes I know it is a bit of a miracle.

There is nothing to stop me using two of the 10 mcgs twice a week, provided I can convince her to prescribe me enough.

I know this will only be 40 mcgs a week not 50 mcgs a week but it will save messing about with it almost every night !

There is also much less chance I will forget it, I will not be forever inserting the stuff and I will get a consistent dose.

Yes Novo Numptys or whatever their name is will still profiteer out of it much to my disgust but maybe this will be a workable solution for me.

What do any of the HRT Gurus think of this as a plan ?

xxxx

[jacksfullofaces]

Seems fine to me
Jacks

[susan]

Thanks Jacks. Novo Nordisk obviously care nothing for the environment I don't know if you have ever seen the six inch long plastic applicator each one is encased in, but it means five of these will be used instead of two at present to get the same dose.

The plastic casing must cost more than the product. So I am angry about it on an environmental level as well, so so wasteful.

xxxx